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Questions and answers, March 3, 1982


Master, it's very wonderful to be here, and — if it pleases You — could You tell us about taking refuge in the Master?

I am also very pleased to see all of you. I am pleased with all of you internally, as well as externally. As far as taking refuge in the Master is concerned, I will tell you that we can do that only when we forget ourselves completely, and only when we start doing the things which please the Master.


In doing Simran, I find that the hardest part of it is mentally pronouncing the first name. I have talked with several other satsangis who have the same problem. Is there an internal reason for that, or is it just my poor pronunciation?

We should have love and faith in the Master within ourselves, and if we have both those things the pronunciation becomes all right by itself.


Last night You said that Master Kirpal was a great Saint [and that] He had liberated even some animals, and I was wondering when You said that He liberated these animals, where did He take them? Did He take them to Sach Khand? [much laughter, including Sant Ji]

When the question comes up [regarding] liberating [humans], it means that Master liberates the souls and takes them to the Real Home, Sach Khand. But when the Master liberates or takes care of the souls of the animals, it means that He liberates their souls from that animal body and gives them the human body in which He then gives them the Naam Initiation and then takes them to Sach Khand. Naam is like a visa with which we can enter the kingdom of Sach Khand.

It may be possible for someone to count the stars in the sky, but it is impossible for anyone to count the examples or to count the grace of the Master. Masters come into this world to liberate the souls and They liberate anyone who comes in Their contact. Whether they ride on any animal, whether they touch or they do anything with an animal — all those animals, all those beings, come under Their protection and they get liberated from their bodies, and they go to the Real Home. Because Masters come into this world only for the sake of the souls, only to liberate the souls.

Now we are sitting on the level of the mind, and between us and the Master there is the great wall of mind, [so] we are not able to know how the Masters liberate the souls. When we cross this wall, when we remove the wall of mind from between us and the Master, only then do we realize how He is working on different levels and how He liberates the souls. Only then do we believe in Him — that He has come as the liberator.


Sant Ji, You always tell us that it's the Master Who brings us to Your side, it's the Master Who does the meditation. What causes us to turn away from the Master? Why do we turn our heads from You?

Always I have said that your Friend is within you and your enemies are also within you. Your Friend is always inspiring you to do the good things, whereas your enemies are always encouraging you to do the bad things. The Master is your Friend and your mind is the enemy. Both these things are within you, and like competent lawyers they both are giving you various excuses and making you do the things according to their wishes. The Master is always inspiring you to do the good things: He is always telling you to go to the Master, to do the meditation, to keep your life pure, and things like that. But the mind is always telling you, “What is the use of going to the Master?” and, “There is no need to meditate now because you still have a long life to live and you will meditate later on.” So when we are obeying the mind it means that we are turning away from the Master. Both these powers are within you and they are inspiring you from your within. You should look in your own self and see how many times you have obeyed your mind and how many times you have followed the Master.

Kabir Sahib has said, “O man, your Friend is within you, as well as your enemy.”

Master is not the body. Master is at the same time with body and without body. As the Form of the Shabd He is all-pervading and He is not the body. But because He has assumed the human body, that is why He has the human body and we see Him in His body. When Master gives the Initiation He sits within the disciple in the Form of the Shabd, and He always tells us that these are the dangerous things and you should not play with them, you should not do these things. And many times Master warns us and He tells us which things we should not do. Not even for one moment does He leave us alone. Always He is telling us about the good things which we must do and about the bad things which we must not do.

I had a friend whose name was Kher Singh. He was not an initiate, but he had the good fortune to have the darshan of beloved Master. Since he believed in the Sikh religion and he was involved in doing the rites and rituals, and the outer things of the Sikh religion, he was not attracted to the Path. But still, he was a good friend of mine.

Once during the night time, he had a vision in which he saw Master Kirpal. Master told him, “Don't go to Punjab. If you go to Punjab you will become sick and you will get so sick that people will have to carry you back to your place and very soon you will leave this world. But if you postpone your visit to Punjab, if you don’t go to Punjab, then it is possible that you may live for some more time.”

The next morning when he woke up he was very happy and he told me about his vision. He told me that he had a dream in which he had seen my Master and Master had told him all those things, and he was very grateful to Master because He told him that he was going to become sick and he should not go to Punjab. Then he said, “I am very sorry that I did not take any advantage of that great Power, that I did not take Naam Initiation from Him.” At that time he repented. But mind is such a thing that even after seeing the Truth, even after understanding a lot, he does not want to do what is good for us, and that is why he forgot after some days what he was supposed to do.

When he told me about his vision, I told him lovingly, “Dear one, this is not a dream. Masters graciously give us Their visions and we understand them as dreams. But in fact, they are not dreams.” I told him that we get the dreams only when our soul goes down into the lower chakras, and as a result we get the worldly dreams in which we do not get any satisfaction, we do not get any happiness. All the worldly dreams, which we have from the lower chakras, end in sadness and we do not get any happiness from them. But when we have any vision of the Master during sleep, at that time Master pulls our soul up to the higher planes and by pulling our soul up into the higher planes, Master wants to purify our soul and He wants to tell us the Truth and the real things which are going to happen in our life. But it is a pity that we do not understand the visions which Master graciously gives us. We understand them as ordinary dreams and that is why we do not take any advantage of them and we don't understand them.

Masters are always looking for the occasion when They can pull our soul up and purify us, because They have come into this world to purify our souls and to take our souls back to the Real Home. Whenever during the day our mind is quiet and we do not have a lot of tension in our mind and when we do not have a lot of thoughts in our mind, then during the night, because of the quietness of our mind during the day, Master finds it very easy to pull our soul up. Pulling our soul up into the higher planes, He gives us His vision and graciously He tells us the things which we must know. Many times this happens with satsangis, but people don't understand that and they understand these experiences as dreams.

So I explained all these things to him and at that time he believed. But later on his mind told him that he should go to visit some other place. Twenty-five miles from here there is a town called Suratgarh. He went there, and even though he knew that Master had told him not to go to Punjab, something happened over there and he decided to go to Punjab. So he took a train and went to Punjab. As soon as he entered the State of Punjab, in the Faridkot area, he became sick. He had gone there to visit his sister, and when he became sick, at once he realized that he had made a mistake, and whatever Master had told him had come true. So when his sister told him that she would take him to the doctor, he said, “No, don't take me to any doctor. I don't want any medicine. Take me at once to Rajasthan.”

So he was brought back to Rajasthan, and then he told me, “Whatever Master said is now coming true. Now I am going to leave. I have only one request, that when I leave the body You should sit with me. I will leave the body with this thought, that I am repenting because I did not take Initiation from the Master; I did not take any advantage of His grace, even though He was so gracious to me. But I request of You that You should sit with me, so that I may pass happily.” At that time when he left the body, I was sitting with him, his two sons, his wife — we all were sitting with him, and he left the body happily and peacefully, saying that Master had come to take his soul up.

So the meaning of telling all these stories is that the Master is so gracious that it is His job to give the warnings to the disciples whom He has initiated. But besides that, He also gives the warnings and the visions to the non-initiates. Those who have a little bit of faith in Him, they are always under the protection of the Master, and they always get the hints during the visions or the sleep. Whenever their mind is quiet, they always get the visions of the Masters and the Masters always tell them the truth.

Both the sons of Kher Singh used to come to see me and now also they are coming. And the daughter-in-law of Kher Singh, whose name was Jagiv Kaur, used to prepare food for Master whenever He would come to visit me. One day it so happened that while she was talking with Master, she asked Him, “When You graciously told my father-in-law what was going to happen to him, when he knew that he was going to become sick and that he would die as a result of that sickness, why did he not believe in You, why did he not obey the orders?”

Master Kirpal told her that because of the mind the soul does not want to obey what the Masters tell them. And the other thing is that whatever is written in their fate, that must happen. Nobody can erase the writing of the Creator and whatever was written for him by Almighty God, that was going to happen. That is why he did not believe in the vision, that is why he did not obey the commandments.

And Kher Singh’s daughter-in-law was very much surprised that someone would not obey the order of the Master when the Master had told him that this would cost him his life. So Master lovingly told her, “Well, if you don't understand this, I am telling you that you will die after falling down from your own tractor: your tractor will run over you and you will die as a result. If you want to do anything for yourself, you can try to save yourself.”

At that time the Kher Singh family did not have any tractor and they thought that it was all impossible — because when they didn't even have a tractor, what was the possibility of getting run over by a tractor? So they did not believe in that. But after some years Kher Singh's son bought a tractor and they brought it to my place so that I might bless that tractor.

Then I reminded Jagiv Kaur about what Master had said about the tractor, and she said, “Well, what could I do? When they wanted to buy it, I told them they could buy it. But I will be very careful, I will not ride on that tractor.” I said, “Okay, whatever you want, you can do that, but I am pretty sure what will happen, because whatever my beloved Master has uttered, that must come true. Because Saints do not say any useless things; whatever They say always comes true.”

When I was on the first Tour, at Sant Bani Ashram I received a letter which said that Jagiv Kaur had died because she fell from the tractor and the tractor ran over her body, and she left the body right there. I became very sorry for her and I came to realize at that time also, that whatever my Master had said, that had come true.

I mean to say this, that many times Master gives us these warnings. They do not make any prophecies, They do not want to change whatever is written in our fate, but sometimes in Their will, lovingly They give us the warning so that we may know what is going to happen to us and we may do some things which may prepare us to accept the will of God.

It is a pity that the mind of the worldly people is like the neck of the tortoise. Sometimes it is inside, sometimes it is outside. It does not remain stable at one place. Our mind can believe in the Master and obey His commandment only if it becomes still, but because it is not stable, it does not obey the orders of the Master.


Why is it that so much power is given, so much is demonstrated, inside by the Master, but outside, when we're in His presence, He is [not] very demonstrative, or not wanting to tell us a lot of things about our lives? Why is it that He doesn't talk to us much about our personal lives, except for a few minutes, but inside He talks to us a lot?

You know that outwardly the Master does not have so much time as you would expect from Him, and that is why you do not get as much time with Him as you want to, because He has to give time to all the dear ones. But internally He is completely yours and you can talk to Him all night, you can talk to Him as much as you want, because He is always within you and there is nobody else in your within to share Him with you. You are the only one who owns Him in the within. And because He has taken the job of awakening your soul, that is why He is within you, and whenever you are awakened, whenever you look in your within, He is over there and you can talk to Him and ask Him anything you want, as much as you can.

Kabir said, “O Lord, when You will come into my sight, I will close my eyes so that neither I will see anything except You, nor will I let You see anyone else.” We should also make our condition like that of Kabir. Whenever we see the Master, we should have Him in our within, in our vision, and after having Him in our sight, we should close our eyes from everything else so that we may not look at any other thing. And at the same time, we should not let our Master look at anybody else except us.


Every day as the meditation starts, You say to still the mind. How do you do that? [Sant Ji chuckles.]

I said that as we clean the house and remove all the dirt from the house using the broom, in the same way, when we sit for meditation we should clean our within, we should remove all the worldly thoughts from our mind. When we do that what will happen? Our mind will become quiet.

You see that when you have to talk with any of your friends or when you are to do any of your business, you keep your mind quiet and you don't have any other thought going on in your mind except the thoughts which you are going to talk about with your friend, because you want to talk completely with your friend and you don't want to miss anything.

If you are asking him anything, you don't want to miss anything, so you put all your attention on your friend, and you put all your attention on the conversation which you are having, and you don't let your mind wander here and there. In the same way, when you sit for meditation, if you think that your Master is your best friend and while you are dealing with Him your mind should be concentrated on Him and you should not have any worldly thought, you should not have any thought going on in your mind except the thoughts for the Master — if you make your mind like that, only then you can make your mind quiet and communicate with the Master completely. If you are having worldly thoughts in your mind when you are sitting for meditation, you cannot communicate with Him completely.

You know that when you have invited any friend or relative and he is going to come to your house, you clean it very well, so that he may not criticize your house and so that he may like it and will feel welcome over there. In the same way, when you sit for the meditation, everyone should have this thought in their mind: “I am sitting in order to talk with my Master Who is going to come into my heart, come into my within now, and I should keep my home, my within clean.” If it is not clean, the Master will not come there. If it is clean, the Master will definitely come there. Just think, if your within is not clean, how can the Master come? — because He is very clean, He is very pure, and He does not manifest in a dirty place. Master definitely comes to us when we sit for meditation, but when He finds us dirty, He does not enter in our within, He stays away.

If we will keep our thoughts pure, it will be very easy for us to do the Simran. The more pure our thoughts [become], the easier it will become for us to do the Simran. And when our Simran is happening correctly and completely, then Master will manifest within us without our even requesting Him. Whenever He sees us doing Simran, He will at once appear in our within. Master used to say that God is in search of a man. Who is a man? He is a man who has risen above the mind and the organs of senses, and who has withdrawn his soul from everything and has attached it with the Shabd. He who has risen above all the worldly things and has manifested God within him is a man. God is always in search of such a man.

We all say that we are men, that we are human beings, but who are called as men in Sant Mat? Only those who have risen above the worldly pleasures. Those who have become dirty with the worldly pleasures and the worldly things are not called men. You read the writing of Kabir Sahib where He says that God was making the animal, but by mistake He made the man. The intellect and the qualities which the man has are the same as those of the animals. The only difference is that instead of a tail and horns, he has a beard and moustache.

Guru Nanak Sahib said that people get up to do the bad acts, but when the time for meditating on Naam comes, they always keep sleeping. When we have to do any worldly thing, when we have to remain [awake] for the worldly greed and attachment, we don't know where our sleep has gone, we do not feel sleepy. But when we have to sit for the meditation, we feel sleepy, we feel drowsy. Sometimes we say that we have pain in the body, sometimes we complain about this and that, and always the sleep and things bother us. But when we have to do the worldly things, then we don't know where all these problems go.


What is the reason when children are initiated, they are given the Sound before the Simran?

This is because the thoughts of the children are not so spread out, and their attention is also not so spread out in the world. That is why they catch the Sound Current easily. That is why they are given Sound Initiation before the Simran.

Master Sawan Singh Ji used to say that children are innocent souls, and their souls have not become dirty with the worldly pleasures, and that is why many times it happens that the parents, even though they are initiated, are not successful in opening their inner vision, but the children have already opened their vision, and many times they talk with the Master and they have high experiences.


Can you talk about keeping our thoughts pure? Do you mean no worldly thoughts, or just no bad thoughts? [Sant Ji chuckles again.]

No worldly thought is pure. Whenever you think any worldly thought, it will always take you into the world, into the things of the world, which will eventually take you into the worldly pleasures and the worldly things, and that will make the thought impure. Suppose you are thinking about your worldly business, or your education, or going to school and things like that. Only for a couple of minutes in the beginning you might be thinking about those things, but later on your mind will take you in such a direction that you will be thinking of the worldly pleasures and the worldly things which are not very pure.

The book of the mind never comes to an end. Whenever this book of the mind gets opened, no matter how much time you spend in reading it, it will never come to an end. You go on reading it during the day, and even in the night you will be reading it. Whatever thoughts you have during the day, they get transformed and they come in the form of dreams during the night. Again the next morning it continues like that. It never comes to an end.

My mother had a brother-in-faith and he used to do some sort of practices which we didn't know at that time. We would see that during the night he would have a lantern beside him and he would sit for some sort of practice. He had a sharp needle in his hand and whenever any bad thought would come, he would say, “Okay, you have come; let me beat you,” or “Let me punish you with this needle.” And again after some time, he would say, “Okay, you have also come; let me chase you away with this needle.” We didn't know what he was talking about. So in the morning when he would drink his tea, we would go and climb on his shoulders — because we were very [young] — and we used to copy him. We used to say, “Yes uncle, should we also give you the punishment with this needle?” And he said, “Yes, now you are playing jokes on me, but when you grow up, when you will have to struggle with your mind, it is possible that you may make a bigger needle than I have.”

We did not know at that time what he was talking about, but later on, when I had to struggle with the mind, then I realized how he was having a hard time with the mind, how the thoughts were bothering him, and in order to remove those thoughts he was using that needle and he was sitting up all night doing his practices. So I am telling you that if we have an attitude like he had towards the mind — if we always go on punishing the mind, and rebuking him, and chasing the thoughts away — it is possible that we may be able to keep our soul attached to the Shabd and it is possible that we may become successful. If anyone would listen to what he was saying during the night, they would think that many people were coming to visit him, and he did not like them, and he was trying to chase them away. But he used to sleep alone and nobody would go into his room. It was only [because of] the thoughts which he was chasing away, that he was saying, “Yes, you have come, you have come” — like that. So he was removing his thoughts by saying that. In the holy books it is written that Masters are all-knowing, and I believe that. But in the physical body Masters very often are surprised, saying, “This I did not know,” “this is new for me,” and “I want to know, how does it work?” No doubt Saints know everything, but outwardly They do not exhibit Their qualities, because in this world They remain like an innocent child and They do not tell people that They know everything. Last night I was listening to a taped letter which Pappu’s father sent to me from Canada, in which he said, “You always say that Saints never perform any miracles, but how can I believe that when whatever You are doing is all miracle?” People always say things like that, [according to] whatever has happened with them, but Saints say, “No, we are not performing any miracles.” Even though They do good things for other people, still They remain like an innocent child and They say that They are nothing. They always say that it is the grace of the Master, and They always give the honor to the other people. They do not accept anything for themselves, because They know that in this world there is no place for the ego. So They always say, “We have done nothing.” Even though They do everything and They know everything, but still They say, “We don't know anything.” I have seen this many times with my Master: when people would come to Him and praise Him for something which He had done, He would just say, “Hmmm, hmmm. Yes, you have done this, not me.” I mean to say that He would not even be pleased when people would praise Him to His face.